Response to Jay Posner's 7/31 media article

by matto619 on Aug 1, 2009 11:16 AM PDT Comment 23 comments

OK, so today's rant by me, a Gaslamp Baller since inception (almost), is in regards to this article in the UT by Jay Posner about new media. I know only about 1,000 very old people read it in print, but I'm irked about it anyway. This weekly article, normally dedicated to a local TV and radio roundup, decided to have its main focus on the new career paths of Chris Elsten and Craig Ello, two failed (I will use some form of this word frequently, by the way) San Diego radio sportscasters/drivetime hosts/failures.

Posner used to cover these two failures who, ahem, "dominated" the AM radio airwaves in San Diego offering their scorching opinions on San Diego sports before getting canned earlier this year. Naturally, these failures, like Posner and anybody even remotely connected to an old media job, have turned to this newfangled internet thing to connect with their intended consumer. That is all well and good, and should absolutely be commended for its truly innovative thinking, no matter how many years (bordering on decades) late they are to the game.

The article mentions that the failures believe this is "where the media business is headed." Oh really, ya think?

Gaslamp Ball, a site that has been around since 2005 (way longer than the super cleverly-titled 619sports by those failures mentioned above), is the ultimate and predominant site on the internet for all things Padres, as all of you know. What the tag team of Craig and Chris think they're doing and making waves at, Dexter Bustarde and Jonathan Box [pseudonymn] have already been doing for almost 5 years.

In addition to blogging about everything from game recaps to their favorite players to poor coaching and front office decisions, they've even managed to score some great interviews with the likes of Paul DePodesta, and left field bleachers icon "Harry the Heckler."

And it's not like they were the first ones to write their opinions about a sports team on the internet, either. Mr. Jay Posner, this absolutely is not groundbreaking stuff here! Just because two radio failures start some crappy website and figured out how to do a podcast is NOT news!

You should already be aware that the fans of this generation are migrating to more on demand and creative needs. Aren't you in charge of Kevin Acee, the incredibly brilliant San Diego Chargers beat writer? I mean, you must have noticed all the sweet new exclusive video content he's been posting, his willingness to connect with readers via the mailbag, and especially his kickass haircut?

Speaking of the Chargers, they've also got a dedicated site on the same network as Gaslamp Ball. How about that? Bolts from the Blue, which has also been around longer than the site of the failures, gives its own fresh take on the Bolts with instantaneous reactions and analysis from some extraordinarily smart individuals. They even landed an interview with the newly-drafted Louis Vasquez. Pretty cool, right? Give it a read sometime, Jay.

So Jay, when you talk about San Diego sports and new media, you might want to consider that this is something that has already been going on for many years now and it'd definitely behoove you to make note of it.

Regards,

Matt

This FanPost was written by a member of the Gaslamp Ball community and does not necessarily reflect the views of the Gaslamp Ball managers or SB Nation.

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"Jonathan Box"?

I always thought the J was for Jasper.

Nice work, matto.

"You know what...you know what I noticed? Nobody panics when things go according to plan...even if the plan is horrifying."

by Drama on Aug 1, 2009 11:26 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs

There are

a lot of “legitimate” journalists who would bash the blog world on a regular basis. I think a few of them still have their jobs. The rest are now slowly trying to catch the caboose of the train that left years ago.

The problem is that these old writers truly think that we have enjoyed their writing all these years. And maybe if they put their wit and candor on the internets, it would translate. Wrong. We simply did not have that many options back in the days of “printed media”. There were like 3 guys to read, a few more to listen to on the radio, none of whom were any good.

Now with sites like GLB and BFTB, we can interact with the writers and tell them we think they are wrong and why. We can ask questions and even post our own opinions and become contributers. This is the blog’s true genius. The ability to make the reader become an active part in the journalistic process. Its grassroots and its cutting edge all at the same time.

Its evolution. Dinosaurs Will Die.

by soulSD on Aug 1, 2009 12:26 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs

619sports is depressing

It reminds me of the time in 1998 when I signed up for a free trial of CompuServe. It felt so lonely, like no one else in the world was signed on, especially compared to AOL (GLB). On 619, there are never any comments, unless it’s one person making fun of a post, then either Elsten or Ello responding and ripping the commenter (which is totally unprofessional btw). Even the all-white layout is sparse and depressing. I swear I can hear crickets chirp.

The fact is, there are plenty of informed and intelligent people here and on BFTB (actually, even more so on BFTB–no offense) that make traditional media completely unnecessary for me. I haven’t listened to 1090 for more than 5 minutes in years (besides play-by-play obviously) and I’m more informed than ever before thanks to GLB.

I’ve been telling my good buddy for months that he needs to join GLB and stop frequenting the UT boards. I told him next time we hang out I’m setting up his account and showing him the ropes. One of my biggest selling points is that it’s truly a community environment and you get to know people’s ways even though you don’t even know their names.

by 'Eaters on Aug 1, 2009 3:41 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs

Posner is a dope -- the wimp afraid of Ryan Leaf

Don’t get too worked up over what Posner wrote. He’s friends with those guys. That’s the one and only reason why that stuff got written. There’s a reason why those guys are no longer on radio.

Let me spell the word out:
B
O
R
I
N
G

Only thing that puts you to sleep quicker is Posner’s writing.

You guys were way ahead of the game and a no-talent fishwrap loser like Posner isn’t smart enough to figure it out.

by cucamonga on Aug 2, 2009 1:09 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs

We should be thanking Jay Posner

It is easy to call Jay Posner an idiot. Because it is true statement.

We did not need his media column to tell us that the Bleacher Bums were the worst idea in the history of radio. We knew it and didn’t need to be coerced into believing it. Eventually enough fans complained, Moron #1 stuck his foot in his mouth and then we returned to peace and quiet. We don’t need Jay Posner to tell us what we already know. But we are the exceptions as other fans just don’t know that alternatives exist.

WE DO need someone to give us details regarding the players we receive when the face of the Franchise gets traded. Where was San Diego’s Newspaper of Record on this one? They gave us 3 out of 4 pictures and told us their statistical lines for the year and then the real Padre fans in San Diego got together, pooled their information and shared it amongst themselves so they could make informed opinions regarding this trade.

Now here’s the problem. Not everyone knows that WE’RE out here: collecting, sharing, analyzing and arguing amongst ourselves. Sorry guys…..not everyone is AWARE that this venue exists and that it is providing more detailed information gathering and analysis than newspapers. Not everyone knows what a blog is or that it is a valid source of information. Personally, the connotations of Bloggers and Blogs, was always in the realm of politics, I having no idea that there were sports blogs doing great things until l got into this a little over a year ago. Currently the connotations of Sports blogging fall along the lines of being a “42 year old living in their mother’s basement.”

What sports fans don’t realize is that they could come to GLB, Ducksnorts, Another Padre Blog, and many others and get some ridiculously concrete statistical analysis of the game. I’m in awe of some of the great ideas and analysis that I read here from fans……but there aren’t enough people who know that this venue exists. They resort to traditional methods of information gathering (their paths of least resistance)and consequently will never be considered a part of “a knowledgeable fan-base”.

Back to thanking Jay Posner….if people actually read his column and check out 619sports.net they will be exposed to a column of links. They will see a peculiar name they may never have seen before…..Gaslamp Ball….they will click this link and in doing so they will have opened their eyes to a new reality where more light can be shed on the Padres thus fueling their fanaticism to a new level. It will be just like Neo and the Matrix.

619 sports serves a purpose. It provides content that we are not getting from our newspaper….the irony being that the UT is helping to send people in that direction. They gave more info in a Friday podcast regarding Poreda and Richard than the UT. They also have access which, as fans, we need. An interview with Harry the Heckler and DePo is cool but easily attained. 619 got a write-up because (while creeping towards new media) is still relatively aligned with the established way of doing things—-kind of like a paper, kind of like radio, the guys are well known and they interview the big boys. It serves a purpose for fans and it is infinitely better than our alternative at the UT

I don’t need Posner, Canepa, or Sullivan to give me their antiquated opinions. I need a Padre beat writer who might share pieces of information such as the ones Krasovic brought to light a couple of weeks ago. I need someone who can actually speak knowledgeably about Sabrmetrics but I also need someone who has access to the personalities we follow. The community of Padre blogs, including 619, serve this purpose….to provide usable alternatives.

Now the trick is in getting more people to realize that their fan experience can be enhanced through these new mediums.

(RE 619: I’ll sound like an apologist but there are a few things worth noting. Ello doesn’t rip commenters…..I’ve never seen him even respond to a comment, EVER, which is part of the problem with the lack of a community feel there. Ello should be more involved. Elsten will engage in the discussion and I’ve only seen him say something snarky in returning the favor to a guy who made a dicked comment. As far as them being failures….I would say 1360 was the failure….I didn’t even know 1360 was on the air until it was time for them to go OFF the air. Had 1360 actually marketed and promoted themselves we would have never had to endure the pain that was Jordan and Earl. Also, a lack of comments doesn’t necessarily mean that the content is not worthy of consumption…I read a lot of blogs that are valuable but lack the community vibe. Keep in mind that the UT has a lot of reader comments and the UT sucks. One man’s opinion.)

http://avengingjackmurphy.blogspot.com/

I don't agree with a word you're saying but I'll defend to the death your right to say it" ~Patrick Henry

"Shut the fuck up Donnie, you're out of your element!" ~Walter Sobchak from The Big Lebowski

by AIChief on Aug 2, 2009 11:40 AM PDT reply actions 1 recs

i concur

the more the better. I’ve enjoyed a few things they’ve done over there since they started up. If they suck, no one will read them and they will go away. If they’re good, then we all benefit

by Stephen (shaynes41) on Aug 2, 2009 3:55 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

All valid points

And I agree with all of them (except that 1360 are the true failures, I’ll respond to this with my reasons). I just am miffed that Posner made it seem like this was the very first blog he’d ever read and that Elsten/Ello are the only people who’ve ever blogged about sports.

"I bleed powder blue." - Antonio Gates

by matto619 on Aug 2, 2009 6:33 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Re: 1360

I don’t live in San Diego so this could entirely be wrong, but it doesn’t matter whether or not 1360 covered the city in billboards promoting themselves or not. Working in marketing, I know for a fact that you can advertise the crap out of something on multiple platforms with million dollar budgets all you want but it absolutely does not guarantee success at all.

If you have a crappy product, which sports radio generally is anyway, it doesn’t matter what your marketing budget is and that is why I referred to them as failures.

"I bleed powder blue." - Antonio Gates

by matto619 on Aug 2, 2009 6:37 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Scott and BR disagree

by Steve (Grey Suit) on Aug 2, 2009 7:27 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Understandable

I see your frustration on that one. But you do have to consider the source…..Posner’s a clown (just watch the round-table that him, Acee, Canepa and Sullivan do during the football season).

Like I said, I’m semi new to the format and I can’t say the first time that I heard of GLB but I have heard it mentioned by Mud as well as Scan so that shows that there is awareness by “those in the know” . I also know that 619 is aware because they’ve had a link in their favorites section for some time. The most important thing that we can do as fans is to try and encourage fellow friends/fans to access their information via the internet and the blogs that provide good information. I would also say it’s not a bad idea to go and comment on other sites (even the UT) and when they ask you for your website’s address type in: http://www.gaslampball.com/ Your screen name will be the link to GLB. I would also say that it wouldn’t hurt to bombard Posner w/ emails…..because I agree that he did make it sound like 619 were trailblazers in Blogfrica.

Re: 1360
I should have clarified. I was on vacation and in the car during the time Rome is on XX. I had just heard of 1360 so I switched the station and low and behold…..it was Craig Elsten talkin’ Chargers at 10AM! Finally I could listen to local sports radio instead of something national that doesn’t touch one bit on SD so I was stoked.

Ello was always a guy with interesting opinions but was a guy who was best digestible flipping between stations and The Drive with Pallet, Costa, and Rosenberg was really quite superior to Darren Smith and Philly Billy.

These are just my opinions as I know that fans are quite passionate about Radio Personalities that they can’t stand…..but I thought they provided a very solid alternative, and then they were gone. Then the Bleacher Bums entered to a market where the competition had been eliminated. You’re lucky you weren’t living here for that one….

http://avengingjackmurphy.blogspot.com/

I don't agree with a word you're saying but I'll defend to the death your right to say it" ~Patrick Henry

"Shut the fuck up Donnie, you're out of your element!" ~Walter Sobchak from The Big Lebowski

by AIChief on Aug 2, 2009 7:42 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Also, regarding the interview and access

It was meant to show that somebody doesn’t need a press pass to obtain these types of content anymore

"I bleed powder blue." - Antonio Gates

by matto619 on Aug 2, 2009 6:40 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Response

I guess I can understand why folks who have been participating on and writing for websites could be jealous or upset that our website got a writeup in the Sports Media column of the U-T. I’d even go so far as to say that you make some valid points, such as the fact that traditional media is way behind the curve and just now is catching on, years late. And I know that neither myself nor Chris ever expected for every single person in San Diego to like us, enjoy our broadcasting/writing/coverage, or wish us success. Some people are going to be put off by one or both of our styles, others might actively dislike what we do.

(BTW: I really like GLB and BFTB and have nothing negative to say about them. I wish them all the success in the world. I think there’s plenty of room on the WWW for all opinions, coming from all directions, and wish they would receive just as much publicity as anyone else. We are quite grateful every time that GLB links to one of our stories, podcasts or interviews. We hope BFTB will do the same during Chargers season.)

But to refer to us collectively as “failures”, over and over, in a fashion that is clearly and intentionally mean-spirited, is simply inaccurate. I’m not going to bother defending myself against an attack that is just meant to hurt and offend. If you’d like to know what has happened to the radio industry and how thousands of people around the country lost their jobs in the last eight months, that’s a different story. It wasn’t personal, that’s for sure. Your post makes it personal, though, as if someone somewhere said “those two stink! Fire them!” And you laughed and clapped.

Whatever you may do for a living, sir, I sincerely hope you never have to lose your job and see the industry you have built your living in collapse around you. If that does happen and you try and make something of yourself still, I hope you don’t have to read someone mocking and belittling your efforts and calling you a failure. If you do have to read such an unfortunate thing, I hope it doesn’t sway you from staying true to what you believe and continuing to try your best.

by Craig E on Aug 3, 2009 5:40 PM PDT reply actions 5 recs

In matto619's defense

This story showed up in my inbox a few days back. Matto had written about half of it, admittedly while “a little drunk”, and stopped because he thought he was getting too mean. I didn’t tell him to be mean, but I did encourage him to finish it because I thought the points he were making were good ones. I probably should’ve advised him to be a little nicer, but I didn’t feel it was my place to criticize. I even told him, on the strength of the points, that I’d put it on the front page of BFTB. After I did I received an e-mail from one of my writers who said he believe the post to be too mean-spirited, so I removed it from the front page.

As you stated, the message is delivered in a way you’d expect from somebody who is angry about it (and maybe a little tipsy), but that doesn’t make it the wrong message. In a roundabout way, what angered Matto so much was simple. He has been a member of GLB for over 4 years and a member at BFTB since it started a year ago. To him, these places (at least GLB) are the ones that should be held up as “trailblazers” of this medium. Yet, Posner chose to pretend that we had never existed and held 619sports up as something new and different. Are the writers of different backgrounds? Sure, but this story was written months ago when Len Berman moved from the Old Media to a blog and newsletter of his own. If Posner wanted to do an article about New Media as it relates to San Diego sports, he should’ve started with GLB, Ducksnorts, etc and worked his way down to BFTB, 619sports and newer blogs. He even could’ve explained how sports blogs have changed during that timespan, becoming more of a community, rather than painting you guys as Neil Armstrong and Buzz Aldrin. The way he went about writing it not only presented an incorrect message but also seemed to be a direct swipe at GLB and others (by leaving them out).

This is a point that has been made at BFTB about Kevin Acee. It seems that he gets a lot more credit for his blog and video reports than BFTB ever will, even if we were to put out better content than him on a daily basis. The believed reason behind this is because the old-media guys supposedly stick together and are trying to push blogs (written by regular people) down. Do I think this is necessarily true? No. But I would also be interested to know if you knew about GLB and BFTB before venturing into the same territory. I think most newspaper and radio guys don’t know we exist or choose to ignore us. From what I’ve gathered, they typically view us as less professional than even a newspaper or radio intern because the medium we use allows us to be different (by that I mean it allows us to be fans). To be viewed in that way simply because we have other jobs seems a bit unfair.

"I did not invent the wheel, I was the crooked spoke adjacent." - Aesop Rock

by John (obviousman) on Aug 4, 2009 5:44 AM PDT up reply actions 3 recs

I think in this situation two things are being conflated. The first is the desire to see websites such as GLB and BFTB receive more publicity and public mention. The second is an article written in the Sports Media column (which covers radio/TV) about two radio guys trying to reinvent their careers. Folks rightly desiring outcome #1 see outcome #2 and take it as a stab against themselves.

But Jay’s column was by no means a comprehensive look at new media covering SD sports, nor did it even pretend to be such a thing. It was a story about us, Chris and I, what happened to us, and what we’re trying to do about it. That’s the angle. How do two guys who carved out a career in traditional media adjust when their career path crumbles around them?

Chris and I are (were) part of Jay’s regular beat. New media is not. He was covering his beat, and peeking his nose inside the tent.

So Posner didn’t “want to do an article about New Media as it relates to San Diego sports”. He wanted to do an article about us. And as such not only did the article not present an “incorrect message”, it was certainly not a “direct swipe” at anyone.

Look, I don’t know how many times I’ve read a Sports Media column and thought “why is this guy getting such and such and nobody’s mentioning me? I did a WAY better job than that guy!” But it wasn’t about me. I think you felt the same way, but it wasn’t about you.

I’m disappointed that as the head guy at BFTB you would be willing to read that post in any part and encourage the writer to continue as is. But that’s part of what I have learned working in the media over the course of 15 years. It’s easy to slam, it’s easy to put something out there that is mean or harsh, and then you learn over time where the line is and how to approach it without stepping over. When covering sports, you learn this quickly if you present yourself at the place of work of the people you are talking/writing about. It’s one thing to hide behind a keyboard and insult the Chargers or Padres, and quite another to walk amongst them the next day when the players and the organization can let you know exactly what they thought about what you wrote.

When I was covering the Padres on an everyday basis as the pre/postgame host on KOGO, I once was critical of the training staff, because players seemed to be getting injured all the time. Naturally, I was making a base assumption without much fact behind it. Trevor Hoffman refused to talk to me until my partner and I went into the training room and made peace with the staff, and furthermore learned more about the situation. It was a lesson I took to heart: it’s easy to hurt with words and you should have some facts behind them if you are going to speak.

Returning to the central point, nobody’s trying to push anybody down, IMO. I can’t speak for what is in the heart of Jay or Kevin Acee, but I can say that I personally have nothing but goodwill (still) for the online community and I think all voices have a place at the table. On a personal level, I thank you for having the guts to admit that you pushed Matto to finish his cruel and mean-spirited screed. I hope this does not prevent 619 and BFTB from working together moving forward.

by Craig E on Aug 4, 2009 8:41 AM PDT up reply actions 2 recs

It’s one thing to hide behind a keyboard and insult the Chargers or Padres, and quite another to walk amongst them the next day

That’s pretty condescending; I’m surprised you didn’t say he lives his mother’s basement.

www.FriarsOnCardboard.blogspot.com
"jbox does not drink coffee, as it makes him clean house big time." ~Kev

by TheThirdGonzalez on Aug 4, 2009 2:44 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

People hide behind microphones as well. And in TV studios. I was speaking in general. But whatever. I think (hope) John knows that I respect his website and the work done there (and here).

I really tire of invented confrontation and controversy. We’re all trying to do the right thing and I have no intent of starting or continuing a pissing match, OK? I would never have even responded to this post if it wasn’t so unfair and insulting, mean-spirited and unnecessary.

by Craig E on Aug 4, 2009 2:53 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

I agree; I don't care to engage in a pissing match either.

It was pretty immature and dickish of me to pick one little thing out of your well-thought-out reply and construe it how I saw fit; I apologize. You’ve handled this whole thing like the professional that you are and I, for one, welcome you to the Gaslamp Ball family and hope you stick around.

www.FriarsOnCardboard.blogspot.com
"jbox does not drink coffee, as it makes him clean house big time." ~Kev

by TheThirdGonzalez on Aug 4, 2009 3:52 PM PDT up reply actions 3 recs

Thank you, sir

Glad to be here!

by Craig E on Aug 4, 2009 4:34 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

I thought being condescending was a compliment

Memo to baseball managers: You manufacture runs by NOT making outs, not by making them on purpose.

by Wonko on Aug 4, 2009 6:30 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

I’m disappointed that as the head guy at BFTB you would be willing to read that post in any part and encourage the writer to continue as is.

See, there’s the difference. Anybody in the world can join BFTB and write a FanPost saying whatever they want. Now, they can’t be racist and they can’t use too much foul language and all that, but they are allowed to have their own voice. If Matto was one of the other BFTB writers asking for an opinion on a BFTB story, would’ve told him to tone down the message. But he’s a fan and he has a right to say what he wants in his own voice. Does it take credibility away from his message? Absolutely, but as the leader of an online community I felt it wasn’t my place to give him that kind of advice. Truth be told, his message could’ve been just about anything and I would’ve told him that anything he cared that passionately about should be finished.

And yes, you’re right, I looked at the article a little too personally. As you said, it’s what happens when you believe in what you’re doing (and it happens more frequently with less experience).

Every point that you made is right. Honestly, you shouldn’t even have been here and the only reason you are is because of the overused word “failures”. Matto’s article was meant to be, and I initially read it to be, an attack on Jay Posner. Having a “Sports Media” column that ignores the internet is just silly.

It’s one thing to hide behind a keyboard and insult the Chargers or Padres, and quite another to walk amongst them the next day when the players and the organization can let you know exactly what they thought about what you wrote.

First of all, I will be going to Chargers training camp this weekend to talk to those same players, coaches and front office people that I’ve criticized. The reason that I’m not at every day of training camp is that I live in Philadelphia. I’m here for my career and don’t know that I’ll ever be able to move back to San Diego. Should that hurt my credibility? I choose to join the workforce instead of going to college for personal reasons that I don’t regret, but without a degree in journalism I don’t stand a chance of getting a job at the SDUT or NC Times. Does that make my research any less real?

I would welcome the opportunity to have my words, both good and bad, read and responded to by every member of the Chargers organization. Because I do make sure that my words, whether they’re hurtful or not, have real facts behind them.

I thank you for the kind words and hope that my responses to your comments have not come off as mean-spirited. For what it’s worth, I don’t fault Matto for what he did. Every writer in the world has gotten drunk and written something that came off as a little too angry. I’m surprised he was able to get through the whole thing without a bunch of expletives. At the same time, I respect you and Chris for trying what you’re trying. It takes more guts than what I do, which is to run the blog as a “second job” that doesn’t serve as my main source of income.

….and because I can never finish a comment without reiterating my point……

Posner’s view is what was being criticized here. By myself and by Matto, although he hurt you and Chris in the process. Posner’s article, although it wasn’t a direct swipe at GLB and BFTB, made it clear that no blog is worthy of his attention unless it’s one written by an ex-TV/radio personality. That’s what I took from it anyways.

"I did not invent the wheel, I was the crooked spoke adjacent." - Aesop Rock

by John (obviousman) on Aug 4, 2009 4:23 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

By the way....

I linked to your blog today and will do so in the future. Keep up the good work.

"I did not invent the wheel, I was the crooked spoke adjacent." - Aesop Rock

by John (obviousman) on Aug 4, 2009 4:25 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Appreciate it very much

I’m glad a lot of good came out of this thread, whatever its intent at the start.

by Craig E on Aug 4, 2009 8:25 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

619 sports - Thinking outside of the box w. some needed guerilla media

I don’t know these guys 2 guys personally but appreciate what Ello & Elsten are trying to do : putting their hearts into a project like 619 Sports, with no guarantees -thinking outside the box with a project that I have thus far really enjoyed. At least for the time being (though I am sure that they could use some media dollars from some locally based merchants) they are doing it on their time and on their dollar. Not always perfect – w/surely some glitches and setbacks – this is a noble project that should be welcomed, not bashed on a quite personal level.

by texpadre on Aug 3, 2009 6:30 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs