Gaslamp Ball Debate Club: Do baseball players even need coaches?
A Corey Brock mailbag brings us this (I added italics):
Have there been any significant attempts by the coaching staff or team leaders to fire the team up during this losing streak? I remember when either Bruce Bochy or Phil Nevin and Ryan Klesko would call for a closed-door meeting during a losing streak, and the team always responded.
-- Alec E., Sierra Madre, Calif.There's usually a split in most clubhouses when it comes to these types of "closed-door" meetings. The Padres have had at least two during this early-season slump. Sometimes you see immediate results, though it's not as simple a function of a team "trying harder." These meetings usually involve veteran players speaking out about how the team is capable of playing better, etc. Nothing too crazy, like tipping over a table of pizzas or throwing things. These guys are professionals, they understand their predicament and don't need to be reminded of that.
This allows me to, again, bring up something that's always bothered me. Jbox and Jonny Dub (and sometimes Kev) and I debate this all the time. Basically, it's always bothered me that baseball, unlike every other professional team sport in the world, apparently does not actually have a need for their coaches. Or at the very least, there's the idea that baseball players should be able to "figure it out" on their own.
When the team's not hitting, the hitting coach gets fired, but there's always a vocal argument that firing the hitting coach doesn't actually do anything because the hitters have to know what they're doing on their own. The base coaches get a little more credit, but we've seen players routinely miss (ignore) signs and signals. Sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't, but couldn't the players play base coach just as well and save some money? There, I saved some money for the Padres. Make the guys who made the last outs play base coach. We've all done it. It's easy.
I also look at Spring Training and compare it to preseason football and training camp. Maybe it's just me, but Spring Training practices look an awul lot like goofing off, while football practices look very intense. There are obvious differences between the two games, but it seems to me that there isn't enough work on the fundamentals.
Anyways, if you've read GLB for any amount of time, you've heard my rant before. What do you think? How much of an impact do coaches make on baseball players?
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34 comments
Comments
Save some money, Jake.
Hire a lesser-known personal assistant.
The right man in the wrong place can make all the difference in the world.
by Axion on May 13, 2008 8:20 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm just saying
I agree that baseball coaches do less than, anyone, anywhere, ever, does at their job—but that the perspective that comes with not actually having to play has some value.
by Dalton on May 13, 2008 8:30 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
We need coaches
And here’s why, most importantly, scouting. Pitchers need their reports on who they are facing, hitters need their reports as well. We can change the job title to secretary if that makes you more comfortable. But there is something more.
I’ve watched Balsley crank out Cindarella, one after another, from a list of retreads, scrubs, and bums, only to have them turn into pumpkins when they leave. I don’t know what he’s doing out there, it’s probably witchcraft.
Mechanics, from both pitchers and hitters need to be watched from a 3rd party. Not everyone is Tony Gwynn, breaking down their own swings on video and isolating problems. A lot of these guys aren’t exactly scientists, some are, but most are not.
Signs, tendencies, game situations: Coaches are constantly keeping this in line, lest someone forget how many outs there are, where runners are, etc.
Also, without your manager paying attention, this happens.
The right man in the wrong place can make all the difference in the world.
by Axion on May 13, 2008 8:32 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Managers make a difference
I think the managers in baseball just tend to have a more subtle or less obvious impact on the outcome of the game than an offensive coordinator in football might have. But managers decide rotations, lineups, whether to call in the outfield or push them back. They are the ones who (should) know that a guy on their bench has a really good average against the opposing pitcher. They decide when to pull a pitcher or when to walk a guy who is on fire for the night.
I think managers tend to be overlooked when the performance of a club is in question. We make fun of “gas can” Thatcher for giving up runs then say he should be traded or send down. But many times people don’t ask, why did Bud Black put this guy in the game during a tie game. Why did he pitch to Bengie Molina who already had a HR earlier in the game in a 2 out situation when the guy behind him is 0-6?
Managers make a huge impact on the team. Sometimes it is positive. Other times, not so much.
by sacpadre on May 13, 2008 8:35 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Managers
Managers are rarely, if ever, hired for their game strategy. Most managers are hired for 1 of 4 things.
1. They are good with the media or have a good reputation (aka. were a good ballplayer).
2. They are a player’s manager that is good at managing egos.
3. They are buddies with the general manager.
4. They blew away the hiring staff at their interview (Hello Buddy!).
Joe Sheehan at BP has been harping on this for a while. Managers need to learn baseball strategy. Things like when to bring in relievers, who to platoon, how to set you lineup, when to bunt, when to pitchout, etc. Most managers get this stuff wrong on a daily basis. Sheehan recommends that every manager play at least 1000 games of strat baseball in order to learn how best to deploy your players. Until then, we are stuck with guys who at best know how to manage egos, deal with the media, and handle injury situations. These are all valuable and necessary skills, but wouldn’t it be nice if they knew how to strategize too?
I watched all 23 innings and all I got was this lousy signature.
by Wonko on May 13, 2008 8:56 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I basically agree with everything so far
Here’s my thinking though… If baseball were more like football, catchers would not call the game on their own unless the dude was the Peyton Manning of catchers.
by Dex on May 13, 2008 8:49 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Hmmm
I’d actually want to know how many do the game. I wouldn’t be surprised if less than 50% of catchers call the game.
I watched all 23 innings and all I got was this lousy signature.
by Wonko on May 13, 2008 8:59 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Really?
I feel like I’ve seen plenty of baseball and I’m not sure where the catchers would be getting signals at all. I know there’s a general strategy like, “this guy can’t catch up to the high fastball” or “this guy will chase the outside corner every time” or whatever. Are you saying that the manager’s calling the game? The pitcher?
by Dex on May 13, 2008 9:02 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Bochy used to give signs to catchers
The right man in the wrong place can make all the difference in the world.
by Axion on May 13, 2008 9:03 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Combo
A lot of managers call the game. A handful of pitchers will at least be involved in a majority of their pitches.
I watched all 23 innings and all I got was this lousy signature.
by Wonko on May 13, 2008 9:04 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
What I'm saying
Maybe it isn’t clear, but not one play happens in football without the coordinators basically telling everybody exactly where to be. I’m talking about every single pitch that comes out of the pitcher’s hand is because a sign came in from the manager. I very much doubt this happens in baseball because I watch pitchers shaking off signs in every game I’ve ever seen, which tells me that the pitcher/catcher combo calls each individual pitch under a broad strategy.
by Dex on May 13, 2008 12:04 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
The quarterback can shake-off the coordinator
Audibles are very frequent.
by Wes on May 13, 2008 12:34 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
There's behind the scenes stuff we are not privy to, I think.
The catcher, when looking for said signs, usually looks to the dugout and it is not seen on TV.
If a pitcher starts shaking off pitches and he is having success calling his own, I think the signs would cease. In the other event, not following the signs and performing poorly will get you run.
The right man in the wrong place can make all the difference in the world.
by Axion on May 13, 2008 12:47 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Another thought
To do this proper you’d really want a radio in the catchers helmet and a coach who is watching the game on video. It’s too hard from the dugout to get a good feel of what the pitcher’s stuff is like. The catcher is probably the guy with the best view and the rules allow him to visit the mound as much as he wants.
I watched all 23 innings and all I got was this lousy signature.
by Wonko on May 13, 2008 9:03 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
They need coaches...
... to tell players when to bat and avoiding going out of order. Look what happens when you fall asleep. You end up looking silly like the Reds.
I'm trying to think but nothing happens.
by CaleciaPad on May 13, 2008 9:00 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Thats right!
We have the worst record in baseball, but at least we have our dignity. We always strikeout in the proper order.
by strummer on May 13, 2008 9:23 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I've said it before, but
I think baseball should have all the coaches it wants off the field. No base coaches. Teach the players to make decisions for themselves and take their own risks. The game would be much more exciting if a player can’t see the ball but has to make a decision or has to keep looking behind him. I want to see the athletes playing the game not being told what to do.
by jbox on May 13, 2008 9:34 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
It could be argued
that the coaches are there to elevate the level of play. Then you have a tradeoff as to what is exciting versus the game being played at its highest level.
The right man in the wrong place can make all the difference in the world.
by Axion on May 13, 2008 12:27 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
good argument
It could also be argued that steroids also elevate the level of play though.
by Dex on May 13, 2008 1:07 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Nice.
And while one would think that steroids would not fall into the same category because their use turns you into a genetic freak and results in health problems, another could cite the case of Bud Black v. Milton Bradley for precedent of managers being harmful to the health of their players!
The right man in the wrong place can make all the difference in the world.
by Axion on May 13, 2008 1:31 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think the best sports
are those that combine strategy and decision making with athletic skill. Coaches on the field take most of the strategy away from the players.
by jbox on May 13, 2008 1:09 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Coaches help
here’s a good example:
Player A is about to come up to bat in the 8th inning. He’s been in the game all night and has had a lot running through his mind. The coach goes up to Player A in the on deck circle and says “watch out for this guy’s curve. he likes to throw in in 3-2 counts.” Then player A gets a 3-2 hanging curve and crushes it thanks to the tip-off.
I think it’s the little stuff like that you need coaches for. Now keep in mind if Player A was Tony Gwynn he would not need help from a coach, but most players do not have the dedication , concentration, and patience Tony has for the little stuff like that.
So in conclusion, self-sufficient and industrious players like Tony Gwynn do not need coaches. These people are students of the game and take it upon themselves to be their own coach. Most other players can benefit from having a coach around.
by wait till next year on May 13, 2008 11:54 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
From what I've read
in Ball Four, managers aren’t nearly that helpful.
by Phantom on May 13, 2008 12:08 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Tony Gwynn credits Dick Williams a lot.
The right man in the wrong place can make all the difference in the world.
by Axion on May 13, 2008 12:15 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I would definitely believe it
I know Tony has worked a lot with his coaches, but I’m also pretty confident that even left on his own he would have done just fine.
The example I made was kind of a generalization, but the idea behind it is that some players will benefit from coaches more than other will.
So I think the question of “do coaches help?” depends a lot on each individual player.
It’s kind of like students in a classroom. Even if the teacher is awesome, not all students will actively seek out the teacher’s knowledge, raise their hands and ask questions, etc… The students who do these things generally get better grades.
by wait till next year on May 13, 2008 12:59 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Managers have a large impact, coaches do help
Baseball is a very strategy-oriented game, therefore managers are very important. The base coaches are the eyes of the players and the voice of the manager, and therefore are also necessary. I believe baseball players in general are smarter that football or basketball players (especially football), and therefore should need less coaching, but everyone can benefit from another set of eyes to critique your swing, work on your fielding approach, etc. I manage and catch for my Fast-Pitch team, and I know that some of the decisions that I have made as far as stealing and pinch-hitting have had big impacts on the outcome of some of our games. For example, let’s say that my pitcher has allowed 3 runs in the fifth, loaded the bases, and has not recorded an out. I would go to my back-up pitcher, even though my pitcher is a 16-year-old girl. She understands that, even in church league, sometimes you have to hand over the ball. Not sure why Buddy doesn’t think grown men can handle that.
A bat, a bat, my kingdom for a bat! - Jake Peavy (loosely translated)
by Boilermaker19 on May 13, 2008 12:48 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I didn't think
they used coaches anymore… don’t they fly to all their away games now?
"We've... we've got lumps of it 'round the back."
by ABY on May 13, 2008 3:26 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs

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