Padres to acquire Counsell. Fans start applauding very awkwardly with arms stretched out above heads

by Dex on Nov 28, 2006 10:04 AM PST in News Comment 49 comments

Wow. Craig Counsell, eh? I mean, he's solid and you know. Ummm... Excuse me... I just have to get used to the idea of rooting for this guy.

Counsell should be in the fold within a few days, giving the Padres a potential leadoff man to replace Roberts. Although Counsell can fill a utility role, he is expected to replace second baseman Josh Barfield, who was traded for third baseman Kevin Kouzmanoff last month.

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If He's The 2B

If he's truly going to be the 2B for the next yr or two, rather than just a utility guy - isn't this putting an inordinate amount of pressure on Kouzmanoff to perform offensively? I understand not placing great value on the 2B spot, but slotting in a guy like Counsell, who doesn't produce much offensively, seems to put a ton of offensive responsibility on a rookie's shoulders. If they didn't want to make the trade for Giles, okay. But even a guy like Ray Durham would help provide more offensive balance than Counsell.

Plus, watching that stance can't be good for a young guy like Kouz. No young player should have to see that thing.

by Winfield's Ghost on Nov 28, 2006 10:20 AM PST reply actions 0 recs

I hate that dude

but in a good way. He's a nuisance that I've always hated playing against. Not great or anything..but seems to be a persistent pain in the side.

by thenerdhater on Nov 28, 2006 10:42 AM PST reply actions 0 recs

Fuck this deal

I'm so angry right now I can scream.

I hate Counsell, I hate him, Ohhh, I hate him. That batting stance, who can tolerate that?

Man I feel so jaded. And Manny "ShouldaBeenInTheNBA" Ramirez? Why don't we go after John Rocker, Dennis Rodman and Dion Sanders while we're at it?

And he's playing where Barfield did. Barfield was fantastic, why the hell did we move him? Are we that afraid to develop our own talent? Or are we just that afraid at our gaping black hole in 3rd?

Folks, meet the Sandy Alderson Padres.

(Apologies, I'm frustrated =))

by Brad on Nov 28, 2006 10:55 AM PST reply actions 0 recs

Agreed

I cannot watch him contort himself into his disgusting batting stance because it nauseates me.

by Enzo Hernandez on Nov 28, 2006 12:32 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Word is...

he flunked the Cirque du Soleil audition too!

"...first the shit must always hit the (hard core) fan." - Nico, AN

by ABY on Nov 28, 2006 1:05 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

More brilliant move by Towers/Alderson

A great way to sell new jerseys, since the team completely changes players every year. Anyone want to buy my Nevin jersey?

by planetjeffy on Nov 28, 2006 10:56 AM PST reply actions 0 recs

Buy?

If I get your Nevin Jersey, I'll want cash considerations too!

"...first the shit must always hit the (hard core) fan." - Nico, AN

by ABY on Nov 29, 2006 9:04 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

By the way, you guys should read this:

http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/redsox/articles/2006/11/28/nl_teams_warm_up_to_idea_of_a_ramre z_deal/

Some really good talk of Padres and why they will or wont get Ramirez:

-----
The Padres, of course, have been a regular trading partner for Boston general manager Theo Epstein, who was once a protégé and top aide to San Diego GM Kevin Towers. The two names that instantly spring to mind in a potential Sox-Padres deal are starting pitcher Jake Peavy, San Diego's ace who had a disappointing 2006 season (11-14, 4.09), and Scott Linebrink, who had a league-leading 36 holds as Trevor Hoffman's primary setup man.

But there are compelling reasons why San Diego may not wind up as the destination for Ramírez.

"Sandy Alderson is not going to spend $20 million a year on Manny Ramírez," said one National League executive, referring to the Padres' CEO who built a tight-fisted reputation when he was building champions in Oakland. "That goes against everything he preaches."

The same executive also saw little reason why Ramírez would consent to a deal to a National League team, calling such a move "the worst possible thing a hitter could do at Manny's stage of his career, switching leagues when he knows all the pitchers and how they work him in the American League.

by Brad on Nov 28, 2006 10:57 AM PST reply actions 0 recs

I'd rather have Todd Walker.

Craig Counsell is a terrible hitter.

by benrb on Nov 28, 2006 11:48 AM PST reply actions 0 recs

Does this mean KG on the way out?

Counsell to short, Durham at 2B, and KG as trade bait?

by twilightkid on Nov 28, 2006 12:16 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

If Counsell is the starter...

I don't care for this. If he's a utility guy, he's an upgrade over Geoff Blum, so that's cool.

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by Richard Wade on Nov 28, 2006 12:21 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

Agreed

If this is as a utility player this is a great signing. But the article seems to indicate they're planning on letting Counsell start at second.

by benrb on Nov 28, 2006 1:14 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

LA & SF

LA & SF are making real signings and our Padres are being left in the dust.

by Enzo Hernandez on Nov 28, 2006 12:33 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

Re: LA & SF

Are you high? The Dodgers signed Juan Pierre for five years. That hurts them. It does not help in any way at all. And what has SF done?

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by Richard Wade on Nov 28, 2006 2:46 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

No Credibility

You can argue that a certain CF is better than Juan Pierre, but to say he provides no value to the Dodgers and, in fact, hurts them, makes you lose all credibility. Pierre never misses a game, and I mean never, hits .300 in his sleep, steals bases, and unlike Kenny Lofton at this stage of his career, can actually catch a fly ball. On top of that, he's been a World Champion, and hit .300 in his one postseason. The Dodgers resigned Nomar and signed free-agent pitcher Randy Wolf. The Giants inked Bruce Bochy and look to be signing Dave Roberts and Mark Loretta. Plus, unlike the Padres, they are probably in serious conversations about obtaining Manny Ramirez. I've ben rooting for the Padres since the franchise was founded. And I've defended this ownership against charges of not delivering what it promised. But so far this year, they haven't done squat. It's easy to say wait 'til it all plays out, but I don't see the Padres deferring the deadline for season ticket payments.

by Enzo Hernandez on Nov 28, 2006 6:58 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Was PIerre just unconscious last year

when he hit .292? Or the previous year when he hit .276? The guy has slugged over .400 once in his career, and the last two years has OBP-ed .330 and .326. His stolen bases are of little value since he also gets caught stealing a ton. And yet the Dodgers committed 5 years and $45 million to him. It was a bad signing that hurt their team.

Nomar and Wolf were good signings. The Padres also got a new manager, one that saved them $1 million per year. They get the advantage over the Giants there. And Roberts and Loretta aren't exactly marquee names either.

by benrb on Nov 28, 2006 7:38 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Marquee Names

And Royce Ring and Kevin Kouzmanoff are marquee names? I'll give you a marquee name: Mike Piazza.

by Enzo Hernandez on Nov 28, 2006 8:24 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Saving $1,000,000

As a Padres shareholder, seeing the team save $1,000,000 by changing managers and then not spending the savings does not have me cheering the team's fiscal prudence.

by Enzo Hernandez on Nov 28, 2006 8:28 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Credibility

You do realize that Pierre is lousy right? The Dodgers have a better in-house alternative in Kemp. Pierre's being a World Champion means nothing other than that he was on a team that was good enough to get to the postseason. The issue isn't even so much that Pierre is bad and they shouldn't want him, but that they signed him to a long-term contract which is borderline retarded. I'll grant you that the Wolf signing was good, though. I had wanted to see him in a Padre uni.

Signing Bruce Bochy is not an impressive move. DR, fun as he is to watch, isn't quite a Major League Left Fielder, but he's better than a 4th outfielder. Mark Loretta is no better than Graffanino at this point in his career.

I'll ignore your other speculation.

Another thing to consider is that the Padres may be trying to wait until they wouldn't have to surrender draft choices.

Also, I'm really rather tired of hearing people bitch about their season tickets. Buy them or don't, but quit bothering the rest of us with your financial decisions.

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by Richard Wade on Nov 29, 2006 4:01 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

A Talent for Overstatement

Pierre was a key to Florida's World Championship in 2003. To say he is lousy is ridiculous. He hit .292 last year. Whatever that is, it isn't lousy. He stole 58 bags. He finished first or second in the NL in stolen bases in each of the past six seasons, and was the most difficult player in the league to strike out in five of the last six years. The contract may be "retarded," but I'd rather see money spent on players I can watch than go to a bottom line from which I cannot benefit.

And to say DR "isn't quite a Major League Left Fielder" is just as ridiculous. Roberts was not a plus CF, but when he moved to LF he was fantastic. He had a great year defensively. Anyone who has played any ball who watched DR last year would agree. I hope you are right about why the Padres may be waiting.

by Enzo Hernandez on Nov 29, 2006 5:36 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: A Talent for Overstatement

.330 OBA & .388 SLG from a below average fielding outfielder playing in a hitter's ballpark is lousy. Also, 58 stolen bags is only impressive until you realize he was caught 20 times. I understand that you want the Padres to sign someone, but I can't imagine why you'd want that someone to be Juan Pierre.

Look, Dave Roberts is a very good Left Fielder defensively. He doesn't hit like a left fielder. He's a fun player to watch (my favorite among last year's Padres). In his best offensive season ever, he was the in the bottom third among starting left fielders. He's not going to get better (if anything, he should get worse). He's an injury risk. He's not a guy I want to see playing left field for the 2007 Padres. That said, I don't want to see anyone worse than Dave out there either, so they better get someone.

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by Richard Wade on Nov 29, 2006 9:39 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: A Talent for Overstatement

Also, my use of terms such as lousy and retarded are simply for effect.

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by Richard Wade on Nov 29, 2006 9:40 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

We Agree

Looks like we agree on many things, Richard. I did not want the Pads to sign Pierre, they already had a version of him in the Doctor. I just thought that he was not a lousy addition to LA. We agree on the Doctor's LF defense; your point about his offensive production is valid. We agree that if they let the Doctor go, they better get someone better. For now, it looks like Termel Sledge is starting in LF.

Go Pads!

by Enzo Hernandez on Nov 30, 2006 12:02 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Agreement

On the original disagreement about DR, I believe that was my fault as it does look like I was ripping his fielding. I'll attempt to be more clear.

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by Richard Wade on Nov 30, 2006 2:56 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Leading Off

A guy with a career OBP of .344 (.327 last year) is the new leadoff man? Grumble, grumble. No way.

by Enzo Hernandez on Nov 28, 2006 12:39 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

Roberts

When Roberts came here he had a career OBP of .332 and was coming of a .337 OBP year. Also, Counsell was playing hurt all last year.

by Wonko on Nov 28, 2006 1:41 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Counsell is insurance

KT inked Counsell so that he can have a failsafe at 2B. This way he can wait out and see if he can get a better 2B once you don't have to give up draft picks to get them. Also, someone may slip through the cracks because they asked for too much (Durham?), or the asking price (via trade) may go down for someone (Giles?). In addition, if you do sign/trade for a different 2B, then Counsell gives a little insurance for 3B or SS in case Kouz doesn't perform well or KG gets hurt (again).

by Wonko on Nov 28, 2006 1:38 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

I have a feeling

that this does have a lot to do with KG. Either as back-up for him or hanging him (KG) out as trade bait. The Pads may have had enough.

Either way this is definitely one of the strangest off-seasons that I can remember.

by jburtrum1 on Nov 28, 2006 2:00 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

I Hope

that Counsell is only the back-up for KG. If Counsell becomes the 2nd base starter, I would be so disappointed that we traded great talent like Barfy just to replace him with Counsell.

by Stephy08 on Nov 28, 2006 2:54 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

Re: Barfield's Great Talent

I'm curious. Why is everyone else so convinced of Barfield's greatness? What are you guys looking at that I haven't seen?

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by Richard Wade on Nov 28, 2006 3:15 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

not great but...

Check out his split stats. He was strong vs lefties and away. He had a solid 1st year in the bigs and was very cheap, 327K. That beats old, expensive and mediocre.

by planetjeffy on Nov 28, 2006 3:53 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Split stats

Personally, I care more about a starter's numbers against righties since they make up a larger portion of the league's pitchers. He was decent as a rookie, but nothing spectacular. He showed no plate discipline and you could see why they considered moving him off second base (the issue being that his bat doesn't play anywhere else). He had pretty good numbers on the road, but half a season isn't the biggest sample size. He just isn't exceptional at anything. I don't see why people think that he projects so well other than people hate the front office and want them to be wrong so they can feel smarter than they are.

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by Richard Wade on Nov 28, 2006 4:00 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

re: smrter than the font orifice

but, neither Graffi nor Counsel have better numbers for all their experience. Do you have someone specific in mind for 2B?

"...first the shit must always hit the (hard core) fan." - Nico, AN

by ABY on Nov 28, 2006 4:06 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Second Base

There's a handful of guys that are interesting. Durham and Walker for instance.

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by Richard Wade on Nov 28, 2006 4:10 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Todd Walker?

I like Durham (he's a tad younger than I thought!), what do you think about Belliard?

"...first the shit must always hit the (hard core) fan." - Nico, AN

by ABY on Nov 28, 2006 4:28 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Belliard

I kinda hate the guy. Not sure why.

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by Richard Wade on Nov 29, 2006 4:02 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

re: not sure

I know what you mean, it's nothing specific but he just rubs you the wrong way!

Statistically though... ? He was pretty solid throughout the post-season, especially defensively. I haven't heard much about him, do you think he is laying low while these crazy signings are going on in the hope in can draw even more $$$$.

"...first the shit must always hit the (hard core) fan." - Nico, AN

by ABY on Nov 29, 2006 9:37 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

i not high on him....

but i do think he would be a nice 2b for us...just think, we could Manny and mini-Manny on the same team. At least Manny would feel more comfortable if we sign Belliard since there is not a Latin presence in the Clubhouse. But we still wouldnt have a leadoff really.....

by frequentfriar on Nov 30, 2006 3:37 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Barfield

I would have to agree that Barfield's offensive numbers weren't spectacular(.318OBP...), and his defensive numbers would have been much worse if he didn't have a great first baseman. No matter what people want to believe, one solid year does not make a proven major leaguer (see:Sean Burroughs). All that isn't saying that he won't end up being an above average second baseman, but I don't see it as any less of a gamble than possibly filling a third base position that hasn't been solid since...Cami?

Let's face it, even with the Padres being capable of spending more money, they probably won't be able to fill every position with great players, and somewhere in the lineup there will be some question marks.

by osbug on Nov 28, 2006 4:22 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Solid since?

Nevin.

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by Richard Wade on Nov 29, 2006 4:03 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

not great but...

yeah, that's what I meant, <ya beat me to it> what he said...

"...first the shit must always hit the (hard core) fan." - Nico, AN

by ABY on Nov 28, 2006 4:02 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Barfield

I agree. Barfield was a rookie and had a good year. Counsell is not a good replacement and is not worth the money that the Padres are going to pay. Barfield is better option at 2nd base than Counsell.

by Stephy08 on Nov 28, 2006 4:50 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Barfield > than Counsell

You guys all realize that we traded Barfield for a quality third baseman. We didn't cut the guy.

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by Richard Wade on Nov 29, 2006 4:03 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

re: haven't seen...

Change is hard for some people.
I think mostly people are looking at the fact that he put up decent (not greatness) numbers for his first year and that so far all the rumors of his possible replacements do not match his figures. Also, people LIKE rookies, they feel they can mold/groom them...

"...first the shit must always hit the (hard core) fan." - Nico, AN

by ABY on Nov 28, 2006 3:58 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Graffanino

Reading reports we won't get Counsell but we are looking at Tony Graffanino. It's looking more and more pathetic.

by fairweather on Nov 28, 2006 3:22 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

I read

the same thing. Counsell to the Brewers.
If we are indeed looking at Graf then this sounds more and more like a utility player. At least we can only hope...

http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/6214970

by jburtrum1 on Nov 28, 2006 3:45 PM PST reply actions 0 recs